Heretics!
Recently, a friend of ours commented on my icky anniversary post. She said...
your relationship is too much WORK and stress and everything else to be healthy and productive! Is is that you two are just DEPENDENT on each other by now? Do you think that you are really right for each other? This one little weekend is basically like a microcosm of your entire relationship. Ups, downs, ups, downs, ups, downs - is that really what you want forever?!?!??!Honestly, I was a little annoyed with her; Tara and I get this a lot from her and her girlfriend and, sometimes, it gets old. But, I thought about it and especially where she was coming from (I'm sure they get tired of hearing about all of our 'break-ups') and realise that it was not meant maliciously (It also helped that she sent a follow-up apology and clarification to her points). And so, after ruminating for, like, ever, I'm finally ready to respond.
I could go with a trite response, as some others have, that the comment is a knee-jerk reaction to some problems that she is having in her relationship; perhaps "since her ship is sinking, she wants to bring ours down with it" type thinking. But I won't, because I don't actually know the innards of her relationship and I don't think that they're doing all that bad. And besides, she may be blunt, to the point, and doesn't like to touch us ;-), but she's not mean.
Without further ado:
Your relationship is too much WORK and stress and everything else to be healthy and productive!
Sometimes, this might seem true. Anyone who is a regular reader of this blog will know that our relationship is damn hard. We argue a lot and not very effectively, BTW. We cry, we get pissed off, we get frustrated (more than anything), etc. Sometimes, we are destructive and hurtful (to address another of her concerns), but far less so than we used to be. I have had concerns as to whether this relationship was too hard; I mean, really, are people supposed to fight as much as we do? The short answer is no! But, looking at it a bit further, it's not so simple. Tara and I are incredibly stubborn people (I dare you to find people who are more stubborn. We make 2year olds look tame.). We are very principled and sure that our way is the right way. We are also extreme opposites; we approach almost everything differently. This might not make for a good relationship. However, what we do have going for us is love, determination, and faith. That is why we keep pushing forward even when we hurt each other (as long as it's not intentional).
Is is that you two are just DEPENDENT on each other by now?
Quite possibly, but I don't think that's all that wrong. I believe that she is referring to codependency, which I dealt with here, here, and here. I actually don't think that we are codependent. We are really making an effort to remain independent and have outside interests and not get lost in each other. We have come a long way baby!
Do you think that you are really right for each other?
*Trying to figure out if a sarcastic response is more appropriate than a truly heartfelt response*
Uh, yeah, duh.
*maidink's wit (i.e. sarcasm) has prevailed*
This one little weekend is basically like a microcosm of your entire relationship. Ups, downs, ups, downs, ups, downs - is that really what you want forever?!?!??!
God, you are sooo right. And, no, that's not what I want. My immediate goal is to make the ups longer than the downs, which I think we are doing pretty good at. But what I do want forever is Tara.
---
We are going to start therapy soon. We have actually been practicing some empathic listening (look it up, I'm too lazy right now.) and, while we're not perfect, we're doing pretty good. We had a break through this week and things are really great. But, we still had a fight last night. And, you know what, that's ok. It happens to everyone; what makes a difference is how we fight.
We are evolving as individuals and as a couple (we just had to accept that it was a necessary process).
I used to wonder if that old saying, "love conquers all," was true. I think it is. And you?
Sunshine
PS. TO my friend, you're a momo that is took you this long to figure out I had another blog!
11 comments:
No comments yet? This is most interesting post yet ... then again, maybe I have a biased view. =-D
i see your points. basically, love conquers all, right? therapy is not a bad idea and you do have a lot of history under your belt to make it worthwhile.
honestly, it just comes down to, for me, does this love make you happy, or does it make you miserable? we'll do a lot of things for love, myself included, but sometimes we lose track of the light. i just want you both to be happy. i still have a hard time seeing either one of you with someone else. i just think there's no rush with the whole marriage thing and i know you've talked about kids ... that shit complicates stuff, you know? instead of thinking about forever and permanent commitments, what about, just, today?
and yes, i just saw this tonight. sometimes it's just too much WORK to log on. ;-)
I hate to break it to anyone who thinks otherwise, but relationships take *work*. Maybe not in the first couple of years, when the romance helps hold things together, and keeps you moving along at a steady pace ... but after that, yes, relationships take real work, and if real work scares you, then I'd be a bit concerned about being in a relationship with someone who is unwilling to put forth the effort, or the *work* that true relationships take.
Sunshine, I am very supportive of whatever you and Tara do, and I wouldn't dare tell you to give it up because it's too much "work". Thats a complete copout. Now, on the other hand, do you need to learn good communication strategies, and how to deal with each others stubbornness, sure, hell yah. I think couples counseling would be a wonderful thing for you two. You two have exactly the kind of stubbornness that will win out in the end. I've heard that the most passionate relationships are passionate in everything, lovemaking, arguing, etc.
So, you two are passionate in everything you do with each other - it shows the depth of your feelings for one another, even if those feelings aren't always the gushy, mushy, lovey-dovey kind.
Embrace your relationship, the ups and downs of it all, and realize, that even in the depths of passion -- that in itself reveals the depths of your feelings for each other, and your stubbornness to work things out because you two KNOW you are right for each other.
I believe in you. I wouldn't dare tell you to "throw in the towel" because the relationship is "too much work" -- hell yes, relationships are work. Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to take a deep look at their own relationships.
Go get couples therapy, learn to communicate more effectively. What you guys have is way too incredible and precious to not expend that effort.
:-)
Peace,
Lisa
@ Tina - I agree with you on the comments thing. I was as shocked as you, but then, I think every post should have a million comments. ;-)
Yes, love conquers all, but with a caveat. The *right* love conquers all. There are some people who shouldn't be together, no matter what love. But, as for Tara and I, I think we should, we just need better ways to communicate. We have both finally recognized what it really takes to make this work and we are ready to do that. We are also the happiest that we've been in a long time. We still fight, but it's a bit different than it used to be.
I can agree with you regarding just thinking for today, especially with our issues to work out. We'll deal with the family issue later.
@ Lisa - It's so nice to have you in my corner. I can always count on a well-timed and well-thought out comment to make me feel better and give me reinforcement.
I think we (generally speaking) believe that relationships are supposed to easy due to what is represented by the media and other people, etc. and are always shocked when they're not easy. This has been a problem for Tara and I both. But damn skippy that our stubbornness will win out!
The thing that amazes me, is how much negativity and discouragement the glbt community has for long term relationships. It's amazing really. And so self sabotaging.
Heterosexual relationships have thousands of years of ingrained traditions and customs that help validate and revalidate the relationship, from the first courtship, to the dances and other dating rituals in high school, dating, "going steady" (or whatever it's called these days), engagement, marriages, wedding parties, etc., images thrown at us from society about what is expected in a dating relationship. When commitment comes around, there are structures designed to help keep the family unit together, social organizations, church or synagogue, friends, family, etc., who are there to help the couple as they build their relationship. Culturally, heterosexuals have it made, in terms of a culture that prizes hetero relationships and validates long term relationships.
Personally, I'll be honest, it angers me when our community sabotages itself when it comes to our relationships. The bar scene, as well as those who encourage people to be single, to cheat on each other, to stray away from loving committed relationships, all of this does an incredible disservice to the community and only helps to perpetuate the *MYTH* that gay and lesbian relationships don't or can't last. Personally, that's bullshit. I've met many many long term couples. My partner and I have been going to synagogue, and there, we enjoy the rites of passage with others, and celebrate their milestones, acknowledging those who have been in relationships for 10, 20, 30 and yes, even 40 or 50 years., I attended an adoption shower hosted by a lesbian couple who were bringing two children over from Russia, beautiful kids. It was a nice event, attended by many friends of the couple, as well as the Rabbi and a few others., but it was soooo welcoming, so comforting, to celebrate others "rites of passage" and realize that we too have the rights to *engage* in the rites of life just like our heterosexual brothers or sisters.
But you know what ... they're not called "rites" for nothing ... sometimes those rites of passage are downright difficult, painful, tough, period.
If we want an easy time of it, we can always find those who would encourage us to take the easy way out, to not dedicate, to not *commit*. Obviously I wouldn't tell you to commit to an abuser, -- I'd be the first person to tell you to leave in that case, having been in that situation myself -- but I suspect that isn't the case here. :-)
Honestly, I was a little annoyed with her; Tara and I get this a lot from her and her girlfriend and, sometimes, it gets old.
I have to admit, I don't care for this very much at all, and I wouldn't hang around with someone who is not supportive of my relationship (yes, with all of its ups and downs). Our community has too much of this kind of attitude and this attitude is so destructive to any kind of longevity in relationships.
The pure and simple fact is: Long term relationships take work. Especially when the people in them are as passionate and stubborn as you two. :-) Anyone who doesn't recognize this is doomed to failure in their own relationships and is certainly not the kind of relationship I'd want to get into. (what do they call those? fair weather relationships?)
Sorry for my second rant on this ... This kind of attitude has been a huge pet peeve of mine, and it is one of the main reasons I don't hang out with a lot of the "lesbian" crowd - because of this destructive attitude that does not encourage or support long term relationships. It's precisely the reason I avoid the bar scene (hey, everyone there is *usually* trying to hook up, and they don't care trying to grab up the girl on your arm) ... Personally I think thats rude, disrespectful, and just a destructive way to live ones life, and it's not how I choose to live my life. I enjoy spending time with my family, and surrounding myself with other couples who are also in long term relationships - it helps to validate my own relationship. We all go through similar things. You'll find that if you hang around people at a similar stage of relationship as yours, they're dealing with similar issues, much different than hanging around someone who can't keep a relationship longer than a year or more (hey, I can say that, I used to be that kind of person - ask me about it sometime).
Surround yourself with people with the same values as you, hang around other couples who are in long term relationships, see how they handle their issues. Hanging around people who are mostly single, or have short term relationships will give you just the kind of reaction that you've described ... I think that a lot of single people might be afraid of the kind of *commitment* that is truly involved in long term relationships. Thats why you have the romance at the beginning of any relationship, it helps "gel" or "cement" the relationship, and if you have what it takes to make it, then you can decide past that honeymoon stage whether you have what it takes to commit for the rest of your life. :-)
I have a lot more to say on the subject, and will probably say more at a later time. :-)
but one more thing (haha) ... I liked what I heard one person say ... it's easy to love someone in the honeymoon stage of any relationship ... the real test of commitment is to *LOVE* them when you don't love them, or when you aren't feeling the love. And the truth is, there are going to be times in your relationships that you don't "feel the love" - but it's easy to love someone when they're loveable, to love someone when they're loveable is easy. Everyone can do that. If only it were that simple.
... the true test is to love them when they're NOT loveable, or better yet, to love them when YOU'RE not feeling loveable, or loving. to Love someone is more than just a state of being, it is an act or action. And sometimes, it's an act, or action that must be *willed* because you just don't "feel the love" -- but you know what, thats okay ... thats what a relationship is all about, being there for each other in all stages and moments in life, even when you're not feeling the love. :-)
Now, of course, if you're not feeling the love *EVER* ... well ... thats a different story.
But obviously thats not the case here.
Either way, a good couples therapist can help you two sooo much, especially since it's clear that you two love each other passionately.
I'll shut up now ...
Peace,
(the rambler),
Lisa
blah, i totally lost it there at the end ... hahah, too much rambling ... :-)
Peace,
Lisa
OK, well that it just way long to respond to each point in depth.
Pt 1 (i.e. sabatoge (sp?) w/in the gay community) - I hear ya and can totally agree.
Pt. 2 (possibly sucky friendships) - I can understand what your saying, but I don't entirely agree with you. I agree that friendships should be supportive and not negative and all that. However, I also understand that, while people should keep their mouths shut unless asked or whatever, not everyone agrees with that (I fall into that category sometimes). Those folks feel the need to make sure that their friends (say, Sunshine and Tara, for example) need to be told what the real story is OR they want to make sure that S&T are not doing something they shouldn't do. Does that make sense.
I don't get mad at those people because I know where it's coming from. There may be a bit of subversiveness to it, but I don't know that. My mom does it (that sneaky passive/agressiveness), I do it, so I get it. The key is to know when those people have gone too far or they really don't care about S&T. I don't believe that's the case here, but I'm on the watch for it.
HEre's how I see it. If I can't stand up to the questioning/criticism and properly defend what I'm doing, than I shouldn't be doing it anyway. So for me, all it does is reinforce that I am making the right choice to stay in my relationship with Tara. That is why I like to hang out with a variety of people, even those that disagree with me (all that validation can be boring). Must be the scientist in me, always wanting to test the hypothesis.
For what it's worth, I think that Tara follows your position more than I do. I tend to be more middle of the line and less polarized with my opinions, but not Tara!
No worries on the second rant. You're passionate about the subject and it shows through. I like to know how people think.
This is Tina's apology sent to me. It seems pertinent to put it here since she tried to anyway, but I wanted to make sure that her follow-up was read and she wasn't castigated too much (a little castigation never hurt anyone).
OK, so I was having a bad day yesterday (see my blog). Didn't mean to sound so harsh, but I guess what I was trying to say is, I like the two of you each in an individual way (even with the hug aversion - it's not personal, as you know). I think both of you are awesome and bring a lot to the world. Sometimes, though, I wonder if you bring out the best in each other. ... I think sometimes that I couldn't even picture either of you with anyone else, but then again, I think sometimes the two of you can be very destructive and hurtful to each other. I was in a six-year relationship not because it was wonderful, but because it was familiar, and easy, even with all the bickering and hurt feelings. At least I knew what to expect all the time and that was comforting in a way. But I feel that the longer you two are together, the less you are growing and evolving as individuals and as a couple ... The love and affection you have for one another is undeniable. But is your relationship and healthy and happy one and where do you see yourselves in another six years? I love the both of you and I just hate to see you both struggling so hard with something that should bring joy and excitement and be well, just a little bit... easier.
Yeah, I was probably a bit castigating in my posts. Believe me, I know what you mean though about point #2.
For whatever it's worth, my first relationship was severely abusive, and I was stupid enough to not know that I deserved better. I was in that relationship for 3 years. I swore after that to never let anyone fuck with me ever again. That started a whole series of non committal relationships, where I totally bolted anytime it got serious or difficult. I was certainly the bar fly who flitted from relationship to relationship, one night stands, etc. Most of my relationships didn't last more than a few months. Some of you guys know of course the story of the ex, who tried to convince me that long term relationships were worth fighting for. I didn't think I'd make it past what I not-so-affectionately called my "three year curse", but we did make it past that, perhaps mostly due to her determination at that point. But somewhere along the way, the failure to communicate with each other drove a huge wedge into things. While I was learning more and more about commitment and learning the hard lesson of committing even when things were rough, she stopped communicating with me, and bailed. She is of course apparently doing wonderfully since the breakup, which drives home the point that we really weren't meant for each other. Or that she was letting *something* hold her back while she was with me (for the fucking record, it wasn't me, as I pretty much let her do whatever she wanted). It is my belief that she gave up on the relationship for quite a while before actually leaving, but even though *I* suggested breaking up, she kept me hanging on with empty promises, until she herself was ready to actually leave. The bottom line there was that we (she) failed to communicate openly and honestly with each other. A relationship without communication is hardly anything at all.
So after this relationship ended, I was left with a decision. I could go back to the person I was before she came along, - that is, afraid to commit, and afraid to believe in long term relationships, and believe me, I was angry and hurt enough to seriously consider that, or I could try to find a way to put what I had learned in that relationship into practice, focusing on the value of a loving, committed relationship. I'd like to think that I made the better decision, because I can honestly say that I am happier today than I have ever been.
People came up to me after my breakup, telling me that they thought she was too controlling, and that I should have left her long ago. Of course I was like "where were you at a few years ago, when I needed to hear those words???" So, yes, I understand that it's important for friends to be able to speak up ... Especially if they see you in an abusive situation.
I also agree that it's important to value different people’s opinions, but that wasn't really what I was trying to get at with my point regarding hanging around people with the same relationship values. The fact is that socially, relationships are more solid, when they're affirmed by others in the same stages. I'm not saying to not have friends with different opinions, I'm just saying that it's important to surround yourself with others who can affirm your values. Not just hang around a bunch of dittoheads, LOL.
Singles into the bar scene have a totally different value system than long term couples. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning singles or short term relationships here. I believe it's important to go through those stages in ones life. Dating, finding out what’s right for you, ditching those who are obviously bad news, learning what works and what doesn't work in a relationship, that’s all a part of the dating/courtship scene. It's expected that in the first 6 months to 3 years or so that you get involved in highly romantic, "earth shaking" relationships, passionate, etc.
You quickly drop those people, during this stage, if they reveal flaws that are untenable, or your personalities clash. That’s very normal. At that stage, it makes perfect sense to say, "If it's taking work, then you need to leave." and in that case, the advice would be absolutely correct. The first few years are your honeymoon stage, and you're right, the romance really shouldn't be *work* AT THAT POINT. And if it is, then this person’s advice would be completely valid.
*HOWEVER* - relationships start to change after approximately the 3 year mark. It's the nature of psychology of human behavior. Somewhere between 3 and 10 years, relationships switch from a primarily *romantic* focus, to a primarily *companionate* focus, and *THAT* is where the true work comes in. If it takes work during the romantic stage, then yes, absolutely move on to the next one.
But once the relationship changes from a romantic to companionate stage, this is where the "work" comes in. For some couples, it often becomes a chore to "plan" for sex, and it loses its spontaneity. The work involves trying to "plan" for the romance, and trying to keep that part alive. The companionate stage is an important psychological stage for preparing for the rest of your lives together, as companions. This happens in ALL relationships, not just lesbian, gay, etc. ... "Lesbian Bed Death" as some call it, is simply a reaction to this stage of a relationship and it is not exclusive to lesbians.
It's important at this stage, to focus on doing *THINGS* together, where your focus isn't each other, like it usually is during the romance stage, but the focus is some project together, that helps to continue to develop your companionate relationship. This is why it's sooo important to be good friends with the person you're dating, because this is the stage where, if you're not *friends* with your lover, well ... you get the picture?
This is why I say it's good to hang out with other long term couples. You can share coping tactics, learn how they succeeded at being long term, learn that you guys probably have much the same issues, that are not the same kinds of issues that your single peers are having at the moment.
That’s why I am saying it's important to surround yourself with people who can help you affirm your values, particularly if you want to commit to a long term relationship. Believe me, if I thought you were in an abusive relationship, I would also encourage you to separate. Neither of you deserves that.
So many relationships don't make it past the 3 to 10 year mark, because they don't know how to transition from a romance focused to a companionate focused relationship. Movies and pop culture romanticize relationships, and people think it's supposed to be "happily ever after" - the truth is, that’s a fairy tale, and not real life. Real relationships take real work especially after the transition from romantic to companionate. I do not mean to say that the romance is outright *dead* - it just takes a bit more effort.
That’s why cheating is so frequent in this stage of many relationships ... the allure of a new romance, the rush, the feelings of romance that one feels they've lost in the primary relationship, it's a huge problem for people in this stage, because they mistakenly think that the romance stage will last forever.
I used to say that I was in love with "falling in love" and that’s what I sought in each new short term relationship ... that rush that comes with falling in love. When the rush was gone ... I went on to someone new.
What I know now, is that it is possible to maintain the romance, to keep it alive, and to keep the "rush" - but yes indeed it takes work. I also value the commitment, someone to depend on, someone to rely on, a soul mate, and partner., not just a fair weather date, but someone who will be there with me thru thick and thin.
So, you two love each other, that’s clear ... you have issues (who doesn't?) ... are you willing to commit to each other? If so, then it sounds to me like it's "simply" (simply???) a matter of learning the appropriate coping skills, communication skills. Go to couples counseling, PLEASE. Let me know how that goes. As I've offered before, I'm willing to pay for your first few sessions, as a friend. (Of course, with your spiffy new job, maybe I won't need to bait you this way ;-) )
Whatever you do, absent abuse, don't bail without seeing a couple’s therapist. Seriously.
Peace,
The Rambler,
Lisa
OMG Lisa, and I thought the other comments were long!
"People came up to me after my breakup, telling me that they thought she was too controlling, and that I should have left her long ago. Of course I was like "where were you at a few years ago, when I needed to hear those words???" - Obviously, it was something you had to figure out yourself. Kindof like the whole gay thing - doesn't mean shit until you know yourself that the sit. isn't right.
"I'm not saying to not have friends with different opinions, I'm just saying that it's important to surround yourself with others who can affirm your values." - D'oh! Obviously, I missed your point. I get what you're saying now.
"'Lesbian Bed Death' as some call it, is simply a reaction to this stage of a relationship and it is not exclusive to lesbians." - Doing the Lisa-nod.
Not much more to say, really. I totally get what you're saying now.
So, where do y'all go to Temple?
Sunshine
When we're able to, we go to Etz Chaim. We don't always go, since it's so far away, but we do try. We should all go sometime, make an evening of it or something! :)
First, I'm so sorry I haven't been on your blog for so long - work's been crazy!
I have to say that as far as love is concerned though, I agree with Lisa. Decisions about friends are yours to take - it varies for everyone. But I have to add my vote here and firm belief for love: as cynical as I may get sometimes, at the end of the day, I truly believe that it really just boils down to whether or not you love one another. If you do, then the next step is to ask yourself whether it is worth it to work at it, and obviously you and Tara have decided to work at it. I don't think it's "too much work" or that it's "dependent" or "unnatural" - in fact, I think Lisa has it right that I would be very hesitant to be in a relationship with someone whom I couldn't trust was in it for the long haul. I want to know that he or she is going to be there with me, every step of the way, y'know? As cheesy as it sounds, that's the whole idea of "for better or worse"!
Sending over lots of positive energy!
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